Fall+on+Your+Knees



DIRECTIONS: Each student in the group is responsible for inventing one discussion question. This discussion question must be posted on the Monday of each week, ensuring time for discussion of each question. Each member of the group, including the person who invented the question, MUST respond to the discussion AT LEAST twice EACH week. Your participation in these online discussions, along with the amount of effort and reflection put into your responses, will account for a portion of your Literature Circle final grade. Each time you post a discussion question or a response,you MUST skip a space from what was written above, and you MUST begin your writing with your last name and first initial so I can mark your participation. It would also be helpful if you choose a specific colour and stick to that colour each week to identify yourself with also.

Week 4 Discussion Question:

 GodsoeV- Now that we've come to the end of the novel, let's look at our opinion of the characters, events, writing, and the closure of the story. Who was your favorite character? Who was your least favorite character? What moments did you perfer over others? What did you not like about the book? What were some events that really surprised you? **

**GodsoeV-** Since no one has answered yet, I'll begin. My favorite character was Frances, especially when she was seventeen or eighteen and working for her uncle, Jameel. I liked how she didn't give a s*#t about what others thought of her because she knew that what she was doing had a purpose. Although, she was smoking, drinking and fooling around with me in a flurry, she still kept her fun and free spirit, her dignity and her self worth. Also, she remained my favorite character when we see her again in old age because without even knowing it, she scares the kids and she seems to just understand how everything happened in her family. She was a well developed character because we see her as an innocent child, we realize she grew up troubled because of the inappropriate relationship her father had created and she had this understand of both her sisters, Mercedes and Lily, who were completely different. My least favorite character would either be James or Materia. Materia was a boring woman, who focused too much on religion and died almost on purpose before her family was ready. James on the other hand, had taken advantage of two of his daughters, ignored another and spoiled the last. He spent too much time with Kathleen that he developed an unhealthy bond and he finally ended up raping and impregnanting her. Frances, he raped when she was a very small girl and really too young to realize how it was bad, then as she grew up troubled he beat her. He ignored Mercedes even when she needed her father's guidance. My least favorite part about the book were all the situations of incest and inappropriateness between James and his daughters. I have a good, healthy relationship with my dad. He understands me, helps me, encourages and guides me but he has never laid a hand on me. It felt strange to hear of a father beating his daughter senseless or thinking such disgusting sexual thoughts, when he knows it is terribly wrong.

**MehrmannC** - Personally, my favorite character was Frances aswell. I thought she brought some interesting moments and experiences into this book, because her personality seemed to be so much different than any other character. She made the book more interesting to me honestly. I love the fact that she really just did not care about other peoples opinions of her. For example, her aunt Camille, really did not like Frances, she kept calling her names and thought she was worthless, but Frances stayed strong and never really let anything bring her down, and never gave up no matter how bad any situation seemed, which is very inspiring to some. We got to see the life of Frances, from the time she was a child, up to her death, which gave the readers an understanding of why she is the way she is. I thought she was the best character of them all. I also liked Mercedes though too, because I can relate to how she felt when it came to her family ignoring her all the time. Some moments in the book that really surpised me would have to be the death of Ambrose, because I really did not see that coming, especially the way it happened. I thought it was so sad. Another part that surprised me was when we found out about what really happened to Frances' child, Anthony. Honestly, I didn't see that coming at all, so it really shocked me too lol. And of course, the fact that James raped Kathleen, which resulted in the birth of Lily and Ambrose. Somehow I don't really believe it though, because normally if there's situations of incest, and a child is the resulted of it, don't the babies usually come out deformed in a way? That's just my thoughts, Im not completely convinced that James is the father of Lily and Ambrose. But of course if it is true, it really does help explain why he was so attached to Lily in the first place.

DoucetS - Hmmm honestly I didn't have a favorite character, but if I were to have one it would be Lily (I had more of a connection) otherwise all the other characters didn't connect with me. My least favorite like you guys is James. I feel so bad for what the girls have to go through with him. In fact as much as I can't relate to the physical abuse I can relate to the emotional abuse by him. I prefer the moments when the sisters we're playing with each other (Lily, Mercedes, Frances) and was innocent. I didn't really have any moments that surprized me. I had feeling of James doing that with Kathleen since the start of the book, although I was surprize to see Kathleen's tall handsome black man turn out to be a girl. All in all the book was differently an intersetting book.

**GodsoeV-** Definately, the most surprising part of the book to me was finding out that Kathleen's lover was a woman and therefore, James was the father of Lily and Ambrose. The whole thing startled me but also made me enjoy reading the ending. I wish there had been more surprises earlier in the book to make it more interesting in the beginning instead of on the very last page. Some characters that we didn't get to talk about all that much was Teresa, Adelaide, Leo and Teresa's husband. I really liked Teresa. The way they described her unique beauty and her pure and perfect ways made me really enjoy her character. I felt really bad when she lost her job because of Frances, and hated the fact that Frances didn't do anything for her, especially considering that Frances loved her since she was small. I was really happy when the book stated that Teresa got pregnant finally because I felt she would make an excellent mother because she is full of kind wisdom. I loved Adelaide as well, for opposite reasons that Teresa. Adelaide was a tough character that would do just about anything for her family. She was the backbone of the their group of people and I found her strength encouraging. I also liked her method of raising her kids. She told her son to beat up the bully that had been bothering him but also suggested that he seeks advise from others and make his own discision. This taught him to choose right from wrong.

**MehrmannC** - I definately have to agree that when we found out Kathleen's lover was a female instead of male was surprising aswell. I was really expecting her to fall for a guy, especially since she grew up in a pretty religious background, and the fact that she said she had kids with this person. I thought it was really sad how their relationship ended like that though, I believe they really cared for eachother, and they could've had a real future together. I also agree that I liked Adelaide's methond of raising her children. It's like she didn't take any crap from anyone, and wouldn't let her own kids have any crap either. I like the fact that she let her children make their own decisions, instead of being forced into doing something or saying something they didn't believe in, which will make them learn from their own mistakes and stuff like that. I thought she was a great mother, unlike Materia who seemed to only care about herself and her religion.

DoucetS - I forgot about Adelaide... but now thinking about her she was my favorite side character, because I enjoyed her I don't take crap from anyone aditude, but yet had control over herself when need be. Like the time with Frances I expected Adelaide to harm her in some way, but she didn't instead Tersea shot Frances. And she forgave Ginger after the whole Frances thing. I like how she's strong and will do anything to get her way. But at the same time having commensense.
 * Week 3 Discussion Question:

MehrmannC - Why do you think Frances was saving herself ** **for a man like** **Mr. Taylor? What do you think made her decide to want to lose her virginity to someone like him?**

**GodsoeV-** I found it really strange that Francis, after making sure that no one touched her in that way while she worked for Jameel, gave herself so willingly to a man she really didn't know. I'm curious as to whether it has something to do with Kathleen, because we know by now that she was in love with a colored man. I don't think Francis loved him, and I don't even think she really wants a baby. So, I find it really, really weird that she tried very hard to get pregnant. She lured Ginger out to the cave, pretended to drown, stuck herself on him, made sure she stayed lying down so that none of him would leave her and refused to wash even when Mercedes requested. I think, because of her father, that Frances is really confused about love and sex and this caused her to do something so wrong as to lie to a man in an attempt to seduce him especiallly when he's married with kids. I do know, and am very curious, as to why Leo "Ginger" Taylor is so in the spotlight of Frances' mind.

**MehrmannC** - I am also curious as to why she has such a sudden interest in Leo aswell. I think that in her mind she has some kind of distorted view of love, and maybe since she felt neglected by the only major man in her life ( her father ), she is just trying to cling herself to any man who shows her any kind of affection or kindness. On page 366 near the bottom of the page, Leo asks Frances why she kept coming around to see him and stuff, then Frances actually tells him that he is the only good man she knows, which is kind of backing up my opinion of her clinging herself to him because he has shown kindness to her. I don't understand why she was trying to get pregnant though.

DoucetS - I think part of it is that Frances maybe knows about Kathleen being in love with a black man. And maybe thats why she went to Leo at first, then maybe later on she noticed that he was very nice towards her. I also think that she tried to get pregnant because of Kathleen and maybe wanted to give birth to a boy, since the first one died. But all in all it was a very confusing moment of the book, since it wasn't truly in the Frances's character to act like she did, so it was an unexpected turn for the reader.

**MehrmannC** - I think that makes total sense what Sarah said. But I think Vicky also mentioned this during the group discussion things. But I completely agree with where you guys are coming from. Since Frances really loved and looked up to her mother, maybe she wanted to follow in her tracks somehow. And with her mother giving birth to a colored baby boy who ended up dying, Frances probably wanted to give birth to a colored baby boy aswell. I don't understand why she would go and choose a man like Leo though, with him already being married and with children of his own. I think it's pretty weird how she chose him over all the other black men she could have possibly met. She probably could have met a single guy who was more in her age group, and they could've ended up having a real future together. I think she just threw her virginity out there, like she was desperate or something.

**GodsoeV-** Anatomically, Francis didn't lose her virginity to Leo because her father, James, had already taken that. Which I find is incredibly disturbing, but could be a potential reason for her acting like a child stripper. I think Frances had some really strange influences that made her confused about love and therefore she didn't understand herself wanting Leo. See, James stopped loving Materia and didn't treat her well. James loved Kathleen a little more than he should have, but Frances had never withnessed pure love and happiness. Which is why I think it made her act out and chase after Leo. Something about Frances' obsession with Lily and her twin brother, Ambrose, made Frances want to recreate him. To do so, she believed she had to sleep with a black man and being Kathleen's sister, she was the closest in blood that could be found. And what better man, than one she knows has strong swimmers, and knows will get her pregnant. What makes me ponder, is why all of a sudden? She was prefectly content just performing and making money. She didn't care about school or kids, nor did she really act like a kid, more childish than anything else. Yet all of a sudden she was ready to raise a baby. Strange?

DoucetS - I think Frances was ready to raise a child of her own, because Kathleen had a child so she wanted to be like Kathleen. I think that since she was getting older, she was remembering more of what happened when she was just a little girl, meaning the death of Kathleen and Ambrose and trying to baptise Lily. I think Frances found that the only colored person she could trust was Leo, she knew he could produce kids, so what better person than Leo.


 * Week 2 Discussion Question:**


 * DoucetS - Why do you think James is so in love with Lily, after the death of Kathleen? Normally in situations like these the children usually get blamed. Do you think it's because James blames himself instead?

GodsoeV- ** I think James is so in love with Lily because she is a spitting image of Kathleen and that is the only essence of her that he has left. Not only is Lily completely adorable and very innocent, she is also a cripple. I think he feels like he has to take extra special care for her because her mother died, her twin died and her grandmother died. I believe James realizes that Lily is not the reason Kathleen died, and therefore does not blame her. I think he blames most, the person that had sex with Kathleen, stealing her purity. And secondly, if he were to blame anyone, he would blame Materia, for choosing Lily over Kathleen.

**MehrmannC** - Man.. Vicky pretty much said everything lol. But yea, I completely agree that Lily is a spitting image of Kathleen, and James knows that Kathleen is in her blood. He might also love Lily so much because he was personally there when her twin died, and maybe a part of him blames himself for the death of Ambrose. And since Lily is pretty much the only thing left that's like a symbol of Kathleen, he is trying to protect her the best he can. With her being a cripple makes it a lot harder to ignore as well, because she needs special attention and stuff like that. I agree with Vicky that James doesn't blame Lily for the death of Kathleen, and that Materia is basically the only person to blame for her death.

DoucetS - I agree with both of you. I can see both your opinons, I can see James blaming Materia for her choice over the babies instead of Kathleen. I can also see him blaming the guy who had sex with her. Pretty much you guys summed it up.

**MehrmannC** - I don't really know what else to say in response to this question. I think everthing was pretty much already said. With all the death that happened around Lily, it is a little weird that James does love her so much. But maybe that's because she was there when he was losing everything else. His wife died, his beloved daughter died, and a beautiful newborn baby boy died. I think it would be impossible for James not to love Lily when she came at such a needed time.

DoucetS - True, Lily, in a way, was there for James when no one else was. James loved his wife to pieces, thinking she was charming and silly when they first met. But after marriage she didn't live up to his wife-like expectations. Kathleen, his firstborn and talented daughter, to whom he devoted everything to, messes up, gets pregnant and loses any chance at fame to be had. Both important woman in his life that let him down. I think James realizes that Mercedes and Francis were more like Materia, and now that Lily is here, he has another chance to love a girl that won't disappoint him. Other than that I don't think there is anything more to be said.

**GodsoeV-** I disagree, there's always something to be said. Now that we've read further into the book, I realize how strange it was for Kathleen to come home pregnant. And, for it to be with a colored man. Because of this, it must have come as a huge surprise to James when he recieved an anomynous letter saying that his daughter was in trouble. I think this made Jame regret not following Kathleen to New York in fear of his "demon." So, in a way, I suppose we could say that James does blame himself for the death of Kathleen, but he also realizes just how special Lily is, that he could never do anything that would upset her. Besides, when Lily was born, James lost a lot of what he loved. She was his one gift back.


 * Week 1 Discussion** **Question:**
 * GodsoeV- ** So far in the book we have seen Materia take on many different emotions and personalities. Let's see if we can find at least 3 different types of mood swings that Materia experiences with an example of each from the story. What could be some possible reasons for her to be acting like this? Let's discuss how Materia acts as opposed to how a "typical" mother should act. We should also discuss the similarities and differences between her as a mother and our own parents (or other parents we know).


 * DoucetS ** - Materia is very child like. She showed this in how she acted after she was first married - not doing housework, waiting for James to come home from work to make supper. I think that she acted this way because she was so young when she got married and her family abandoned her. In the beginning Materia could be fun too. She was always asking James to go places, go dancing. I think that she got sad and withdrew because of the way James was with her. He was embarrassed because she was so childlike and he kept her home and away from other people. I think that Materia was jealous of Kathleen. James adored Kathleen and ignored Materia. Materia loved James very much and couldn't love her daughter as a mother should because of the relationship that James had with Kathleen. I think that a typical mother should put her child first. Materia didn't, she want to be first in James life. 

** MehrmannC - **I agree with what Sarah said about how you should always put your children first. And since Materia's parents abandoned her when she was younger, maybe this is starting to reflect on how she treats her children in he r present life now. Maybe since she felt abandoned or not loved by her parents, she thinks that she can just feel the need to not love her own children as well. I don’t know if that makes sense to you or not. One mood swing that we have noticed in this book would probably have to be when she just all of a sudden out of nowhere started to act like a wife cause before she would like mope around and not cook and stuff like that, but now she tries cooking and doesn’t spend as much time wondering around by the water. In response to what Sarah said, about how she wants to be first in James' life, I don't understand why she wanted him dead if she wanted to be his first priority. 


 * GodsoeV - ** Three predominant mood swings that I found with Materia are content and happy; on autopilot as a wife; and sad, depressed and feeling disgruntled. When James first meets Materia, he sees her as this free and fun spirit, shown when she teases him by hitting C# on the piano, and also many times in the day they spend together. Even after Materia sneaks away from her house to secretly marry James, she is happy and silly and they spend a wonderful evening together. The second mood swing Materia experiences, occurs suddenly one day when she starts making dinner. Her neighbor, Mrs. Luvovitz, started teaching Materia how to cook, sew, clean and become a real wife. This is something that her mother should of done and probably would have had they not disowned her the way they did. Throughout the next section of the book, whenever something becomes challenging for Materia to deal with we find her cooking or cleaning the house, almost using it as a void. The last mood swing that Materia experiences occurs often, first when her parents disown her, again when she realizes that Kathleen has replaced her in James's eyes of affection, and finally when she had to choose who to save when Kathleen was in labor. I think Materia has some mental instability, possible from before she was married or from her traumatic life change that happened so quickly. Materia eventually plays the role of the typical mother, cooking, cleaning and so on, but she has this darkness inside her that stops her from truly love all of her family. I find in today's society, Mother's are typically expected to not only cook and clean at home but also have a career to support their family with. I do not think I could see Materia having enough stability to care for her family as well as uphold a career. 

**MehrmannC** - I agree that Materia does not have the mental stability to support her family or an actual career. I think she is too emotionally unavailable to even support her husband most of the time as well. I think that since she was abandoned when she was younger has made her unable to enjoy her life. She probably never had the chance to create that whole mother- daughter bond with her own mother, and I’m sure she would have taught Materia to cook, clean and do all those other wifely things. I know that if I was abandoned by my parents, I would always feel a part of me was missing, and I don’t think Materia knows how to emotionally deal with that. And yea, every time she does face something that more of a challenge for her, she tries to ignore it by cooking and cleaning and stuff like that. I don’t understand how she was so happy in the beginning of the book, and looked forward to her future with James, but now it’s like as though she doesn’t even care about what is going on around her anymore.


 * GodsoeV - ** I definitely agree with Chelsea's point that Materia is too emotionally unavailable to support not only her husband, but her daughter Kathleen. She is so caught up in how depressed she is without her parents and sister, that the only thing she can do to escape from her reality is to devote herself to religion, repenting sins. I think this is really sad because she didn't realize that she could find enjoyment from her kids, until it was really late. She missed out on any bonding she could have had with Kathleen and died before her two younger girls were able to grow up with their mother. One of Mercedes and Francis's favorite memories was dancing with their mother and hearing about the "Old Country." This kind of appears to be a chain of events. Materia missed out on time with her mother because she ran away and married a different man than the one she was promised to and suffered the loss of mother-daughter time. Now her kids are experiencing the same thing, since she had her stroke. Mercedes feels lonely and had to take on the role of mother and Francis is acting out in a troubling way. I think it’s strange that Mercedes is growing up to think like a mother, taking the time to buy food and supplies, grow a garden, cook meals, and clean considering she didn't have the best role model for a mother; whereas, Materia had a kind and gentle mother, who cooked and looked after her family, loving them and supporting her husband and yet Materia grew into a poor wife and mother.